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Here is first comment. I only read the first half so far.

>Specifically, perennialism is the position that most natural religions have mystified what is in fact the same quintessential truths regarding the metaphysical structure and organization of Reality. It is not the position of “all religions are true”, but rather, it is the position that most religions speak to the same abstract truths which are obfuscated in myths that must be demystified.

My main problem with Perennialism (which I talked about in my response to Praxius over Pagans) is that a lot of the Traditionalist/Perennialism crowd like to pick and choose what thinkers to pick up as evidence of the widespread Perennial Tradition, and throw those with other ideas out as “decadent” or something-something. I think they’re right but in a bit of a redundant way. All religions require an Idealistic element because almost all religions with set beliefs (as opposed to purely ritualistic religions) are supernatural. Monism, ehhhhh… It’s really hard to say, because a lot of ancient religions either just weren’t really caught up in the “original cause” or were, but didn’t leave records on it.

But I’ll admit, I’ve become a little bit more sympathetic to the notion of a Perennial Tradition in the past few months. I originally used to consider myself a Perennialist, but I stopped. Maybe at the end of this I’ll return.

>“…This incongruency in logic is enough to likewise dismiss the notion of pantheism, which equates God with the universe, despite the fact that the universe is clearly conditioned by principles and laws greater than its scope, such as temporality or mathematics. The only ontologically justifiable position is one which is monadic, emanationist, and panentheistic, asserting that Ultimate Reality is a Oneness, that all faucets of reality are contained with that Oneness, and that this Oneness both contains and is beyond the scope of the universe itself”

Ehh… If you consider non-physical things as “reals” then Pantheism also includes all of that stuff — mathematical principles, objects, temporality, etc etc. What you are describing as “Pantheism” is more like Physicalist Monism, like what the Stoics were up to. I’m pretty sure Spinoza (who people seem to think of when they think Pantheism) actually did believe in non-physical things as reals, he wasn’t a Physicalist Monist.

My issue with Panentheism is that it seems pretty much redundant and serves mostly to reconcile certain Abrahamic dogmatic notions of God with the Monistic notions of the Greks and others. How could God be *more* than the sum of his parts? If this “transcendent” element exists, and comes from God, then surely it is also a “real” in the world.

>The first article of this three-fold synthesis holds “that what exists as an effect necessarily presupposes a cause.” Superficially, this is a replicable and perennial fact of reality: that things as they are, once were not, and thus were caused to be. It is demonstrably observable to the point of gross obviosity.

I ultimately agree with the “uncaused cause” argument stuff, but I’ve always found it a bit unrigorous. Intuitively, it is definitely true, I think the problem is semantic. “cause” is probably not the correct term — I heard a more refined attempt at this argument without using “causiness” years ago from a fellow Monist, but I forgot the jist of it. You sort of go over this in the paragraph or two after this about how timelessly existent objects or events still necessarily have a “cause”.

>Additionally, it is worth noting that we perennialists take things a step further, arguing that because God is Existence or Being itself, that He is inseparable from the reality He creates; all being is Being. This idea will be explored more throughout the essay.

TRVTHNVKE.

Uhh yeah, I have no comment on anything in particular in 2, because I was already pretty familiar with these concepts from Platonic stuff, but one time in a computer science course my teacher was talking about classes and objects and I told her its like Platonic forms and physical manifestations. And then every woman in the class started screeching at me and ripping their skin off and eventually I had to use instant transmission to bug out of there before they could attack me

Ehh yeah, expect more comments tomorrow because I don’t feel like reading the whole thing tonight. But I am liking it so far, and also some of the sections I haven’t read yet look right up my alley.

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I never really got around to chapter 4, but I have nothing going on tonight so I guess I'll polish this puppy off.

>Whether the gods truly bear personhood or are simply reifications which serve as a mental tool of mediation for the “common caste” who cannot comprehend the abstracted Absolute, is unknowable...Some modern Indo-European pagan perennialists might phrase it as saying that the gods/devas represent the infinite personalities of (in this case) Vishnu/Bhakti/Saguna Brahman.

Yes, I think what the Platonists argue is that there are two different varieties of "gods" -- those who change (Daemons) and those who don't change (Henads). The big deities tend to be Henads, with some exceptions, while Daemons are attributed to ever-changing elements of nature. For example, an animistic spirit of a mountain is a Daemon. As for the person-ness of the gods, I think several classical philosophers do explain why the gods are not just "metaphors" but that the principles of reality must necessarily have an intellectual agent similar to the grander intellect. Unfortunately, I'm not very well versed in this line of argument yet, I'm still learning about it.

I believe that what Vishnu is referencing is the Kathenotheistic nature of the Hindu gods... In the Vedas, hymns grant omnipotent traits to multiple deities based on whichever deity said hymn is dedicated to. The idea among the Platonists, I think, is that each Henad (as opposed to Daemons, who are still worthy of worship but are just lesser in nature) represent their own self-contained Hypostasis. While here on earth it may seem like certain gods share attributes, it is more the other way around, that certain things in the world we live in are simply a quality of the substances emanating from these two self-contained and completely distinct deities. I think they are described as modes of the One, and so by worshipping them you are worshipping the One. I'm not super sure if I am ready to accept the notion of the Henads yet, it is a very late Platonic idea that I don't fully understand, and very late Platonism is very lofty and complicated that it's sort of hard to follow from a modern perspective unless you have a long time experience with it.

Another fine Platonic argument for the existence of intellectual gods is simply "argument from prior knowledge" -- basically using the Platonic idea that we are familiar with the world of the forms deep within our consciousness, and in life only rediscover them through recognition of their instances. By this logic, you could say that our intuitive deifying of things is evidence of intellectual gods. It seems like a non-insignificant amount of Greeks (and other ancients) sort of just took it for granted that the world was run by eternal intellectual entities, like to them it was just so obvious that they were waiting for evidence of the contrary to ever believe otherwise.

>Manifestations during spiritual daylight are not to be taken as literal occurrences of a divine being stepping foot on Earth at a particular time, but rather represent broad transformative events.

Yes, the idea that myths are these historical events which happened on the "timeline" is more of an Abrahamic thing. It's kind of a cliche to say this at this point, but to the Greeks the myth "was happening" all the time.

On the topic of "wanderers", I don't think that they are anti-intellectual at all. The "wanderer" is probably not literally a manifestation of the god on earth, but men clearly are creatively possessed by divine energy all the time. The poet, the shaman, the frenzied dancer. The Fuhrer...*cough* *cough* and in a sort of opposite way a man can have such a profound degree of excellence and consequence that his soul (which is immortal and existed before he ever walked the earth) ought to be retroactively deemed a god. And by soul, I don't necessarily mean his conscious experience, but the essence of his character in the world. Like, the soul of Alexander the Great is certainly worth as much consideration as the soul of some hurricane or wind. So I would not relegate belief in any of this stuff to the simple-minded.

As far as the ages go (yuga cycle, Hesiodic ages, etc) I think they are more of an allegory for the sinusoidal nature of order and disorder rather than a literal way to interpret history. Order invites disorder, and disorder destroys itself leaving order to spring back out of the waters.

>Vritra has the etymology ‘vrit’ (‘to exist’) and ‘ra’ (‘one who possesses’) = one who possesses existence. In the Rigveda (10.129.4), existence is understood as a mind that has desire. A mind that is free from desire is said to be [beyond existence]. In this context, Vritra represents desire in the mind. Indra slaying Vritra and ‘releasing the waters’ signifies the process of returning the mind to its [beyond existent] state (cessation of desire).”

Hmm, I find this contrived. The "to possess" element probably refers to Vritra's hording of water and cattle, the latter of which is a trait of the serpent in Indo-European myth at large. He is a hoarding dragon, he is a wasteful dragon who causes drought. Indra's slaying of Vritra allows for the correct ordering of the world through the freeing of the waters and the return of cattle to those who will properly sacrifice them, it is a classic Chaoskampf myth.

>Any kind of creation myth worth anything usually describes the archaic or original reality as something vacuous or otherwise something that can change shape or form. Water or liquids take the shape of whatever they’re contained in or whatever they’re limited by, as well. Basically, the universe or created reality could be said to be the ordering or facilitation or disordered primordial material or substance

Exactly what I was talking about with the Vritra stuff. And yes, I would argue that Yahweh in genesis is simply shaping the essential substance, he is a Demiurge. Not that there's anything wrong with that... I talk about this in my post on Abrahamism, that the decision to interpret genesis as "creation ex nihilo" is one of the primary differentiating traits of Abrahamic religion

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